On Mar 28, 2016, at 8:22 PM, Tom Fields <[address removed]> wrote:

I hope you're right. The Dems will probably win big this year, and we'll so how that works out.

Tom

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From: "Robert W Ahrens" <[address removed]>
To: "atheists-27" <[address removed]>
Sent: Saturday, March 26,[masked]:47:01 PM
Subject: Re: [atheists-27] Nordic Social Democracies

I really don’t see how.  Even a Wall Street guru noted a while back that Sanders’ policies would be the best for the country.  If the government started dumping millions if not billions of dollars into the economy by ensuring a better standard of living for the poor, in part by forcing higher wages, and in part through higher government spending on infrastructure projects, you’d see an economic boom to match that at the end of WWII.  Raising taxes on wealthy folks and corporations would be dwarfed by the additional spending coming into the economy from folks formerly under the poverty line.  Remember, his goal is to raise the living standard for as many Americans as possible.  If you can raise the income for those now under the poverty line (or even a significant percentage), that represents a huge additional market all by itself!  More taxes for State, local and Federal governments, higher profits for the companies they spend their money with, and a greater velocity of money would mean a much better amount of growth for the economy.  (Remember, Obama brought the economy out of the biggest recession in decades with a relatively tiny amount of government spending!  Just think of how much better things would be with literally billions or trillions more being pumped in…)

That would retard any thinking of capital flight.  Those who persisted in that would lose big.

On Mar 26, 2016, at 5:59 PM, Tom Fields <[address removed]> wrote:

As President, Sanders could trigger massive capital flight, especially with a Democratic Congress. But I agree that he'd be better than Trump.  At least Sanders has some principles. He is the Ron Paul of the Left.  

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------ Original Message ------

From: Robert W Ahrens
To: [address removed]
Sent: March 26, 2016 at 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: [atheists-27] Nordic Social Democracies

I really don’t see a tax on investment to be an issue.  Well Street trades billions of dollars a day, and a tiny tax as he has proposed won’t amount to more than pocket change to the people making those trades.  I think enough data exists from the past to show that reasonable taxes don’t really affect that kind of activity.  Not when people still are likely to make millions from those trades.

Sanders is not a “far” left wing candidate.  He is considered left of center for sure, but he is far from being any kind of extremist.  He is very respected in Congress, and is even known as the “Amendment King” for the number of successful amendments he has sponsored which have made it into law.  He has, like Don said, worked successfully with both sides, and has done it respectfully yet with persistence.  Like happened with the ACA, polls have been done asking people about his policies, individually, in ways that divorce them from being identified with a particular candidate.  An easy majority of Americans in the polls ended up liking those policies!

Sanders is an anti-establishment candidate.  So is Trump.  Trump makes Sanders look downright reasonable in comparison.  But don’t be fooled, Sanders is out to overturn how our current system works.  He is after corruption and the way our system is fixed in favor of the wealthy and Corporations, and that resonates well with a lot of people, even many moderate Republicans, who have been pushed out of the Republican Party of today. Millennials dislike Clinton because, right or wrong, they perceive her as being corrupt.  That may or may not be right wing propaganda, but it has taken root.  As for Republicans, they HATE Clinton, and a ton of them will vote for Trump (as an anti-establishment candidate) rather than vote for the status quo and Clinton.  Sanders is and has been shown in polls to be a stronger candidate against all Republicans now in the race than Clinton.

The struggle between Sanders and Clinton is not just about them or their individual policies - it is about how the Democratic Party will act in the future.  Sanders will take it leftward, back to the Party’s roots championing labor and the middle class.  Clinton will leave things as they are, as you noted - status quo.  I don’t know about you, but I think this system needs shaking up, and badly at that.  

On Mar 26, 2016, at 9:25 AM, Tom Fields <[address removed]> wrote:

I'm not slamming Sanders' personal integrity or competence (Burlington is a nice town, by the way).  I'm just concerned that he might take actions that would drive foreign investors away (like the tax on "Wall Street speculation").  And I'm not a fan of Ted Cruz, only saying that he believes in certain Constitutional principles, such as limits on government power.  Trouble is, he's so rigid and dogmatic in his beliefs.  And he doesn't play well with others, to put it mildly.

For the GOP, this campaign is a train wreck.  The most credible candidates were eliminated early on, leaving them with only those who are nearly un-electable. The Democrats have a huge advantage in the Electoral College, so it would be very difficult for any Republican to win the White House. So the GOP's main objective should be to keep control of Congress.  Even that will be a challenge; The Donald's coattails will be radioactive, especially in the vital "swing" states.  There is a very good chance that the Dems will regain the Senate, and possibly the House as well.  If that happens, and Clinton becomes President, it will give too much power to one party.  If the GOP keeps control of Congress, even if it's just the House, then Clinton (or even Sanders, for that matter), will have to govern more pragmatically. That's probably our best bet for a stable economy and competent governance--a Democratic President and Republican Congress. It's a continuation of the status quo.  

Things could be better, but they could be a lot worse. Cruz it too far right for me, and Sanders is too far left.  Trump is a fraud.  So that leaves me with Clinton.  Not that I like her, but she'd be preferable to the others. And in many ways, Clinton (like her husband) is not TOO far removed from the old moderate Republicans (remember them?). If we made it through eight years of Obama, we can get through four years of Clinton.

Tom

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From: "Don Wharton" <[address removed]>
To: "atheists-27" <[address removed]>
Sent: Friday, March 25,[masked]:33:43 PM
Subject: RE: [atheists-27] Nordic Social Democracies

Cruz is a Christian Dominionist.  His view of religious freedom is Christians should have the right to ignore most laws that violate their perceived messages from God.  The fact that some of the GOP establishment see him as the only option to stop Trump should not be seen as saying that they like him.  Almost all of the GOP serving in Congress find him to be totally loathsome.  Lindsay Graham recently famously said that Cruz could be killed on the floor of the Senate and if his killer were tried there no one would convict him.  Frankly, he would probably lose against either Hillary or Bernie almost as badly at Trump would.  The only difference is that with Trump many principles of right wing Republican dogma (ie. free trade) are totally trashed.  It would make it hard for the GOP to have a narrative about what they stand for if Trump is the nominee.

The suggestion that Sanders would be disrespectful of the rule of law is just slander with no basis whatsoever.  He was the Mayor of Burlington, Vermont through four two year terms.  On 12/21/1987 that radical right wing rag, The US News and World Report, cited Bernie as one of America's best mayors.  The negative quality of Latin American leftism rests with its corruption and authoritarianism.  There was not the slightest hint of either during the eight years in which Bernie served in an executive capacity.  The quality of life nurtured when he was mayor was quite popular.  It snowed a lot in Burlington and he instituted a socialist program of snow removal from the city's sidewalks.  He correctly called it socialism (small s) and the result was a more agreeable quality of life.

Another thing that I think should be viewed as a positive even by our more conservative members is that he works with Republicans in a way that says proves his respect for others even when they have differing views.  My guess is that he would be much better than Obama in communicating across party lines.

Don

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From: [address removed]
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [atheists-27] Nordic Social Democracies
Date: Fri, 25 Mar[masked]:07:03 -0400

Venezuela's last elections were a victory for the opposition, but the country has a long way to go.  It's heartening that people there are turning a corner.

That's a good point about the Rule of Law. In general, Scandinavian countries are known for relatively clean, transparent government. The Rule of Law is one attractive feature of investing in our country--which explains in part why so many foreigners have put so MUCH money here.  So...which candidate would respect that principle?  I thing Cruz and Clinton probably would.  Sanders...I don't know.  As for Trump--NO WAY. If The Donald becomes President, don't be surprised if other countries start pulling their money out.

Tom

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From: "Don Wharton" <[address removed]>
To: "atheists-27" <[address removed]>
Sent: Friday, March 25,[masked]:46:59 PM
Subject: RE: [atheists-27] Nordic Social Democracies

I don't see that Venezuela is coming out of its communistic black hole.  They have the highest inflation on the planet and people are having great difficulty just finding food.  The patina of democracy was destroyed with its heavy handed appropriation of almost everything and the criminalization of all opposition.  This has no relationship whatsoever with a responsible social democracy.  The point that you made about the Scandinavian countries not taking control of industry is a critical difference.  I don't think anyone in our community is so delusional that they find the Venezuelan example to be attractive.  

My original post with this thread was from Marketwatch.  Obviously Marketwatch is a somewhat conservative finance based organization.  They were praising the financial performance of the Scandinavian markets because there was good rule of law and excellent protection for investments made in those countries to create new productivity.  This created better than average total returns.  The social investments in education and an absence of corruption were other elements that created the financial success seen in these countries.

My view is that dogma of all forms is the enemy.  I find much of the American right to be totally delusional and dangerous.  However, I also want liberal and progressive claims to be examined and criticized where the outcomes are equally bankrupt.

Don

---

From: [address removed]
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [atheists-27] Nordic Social Democracies
Date: Fri, 25 Mar[masked]:21:24 -0400

Our country is so huge and diverse that a one-size-fits-all approach would be impractical.  And even Scandinavian countries have not had government control of industry (true socialism).  They have enough resources, with relatively small populations, that their elaborate social services are within their means.  That's not quite true for us. Socialism in this country would make it more like Argentina or Venezuela--a prospect that I do not exactly relish. And they are renouncing socialism. Good for them!

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------ Original Message ------

From: Jared Reeves
To: [address removed]
Sent: March 25, 2016 at 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [atheists-27] Nordic Social Democracies

"As an aside, are you saying that anyone who wants a small government is a racist?"

Sounds like something a racist would ask (sarcasm font).

- Jared

On Fri, Mar 25, 2016 at 2:51 PM, Matthew Mendell <[address removed]> wrote:

Wow, this got ugly fast.

I would hope that we can talk about the differences between the United States and Scandanavian countries without immediately jumping to cries of racism.

Don't get me wrong, the real racists out there should be condemned.

I am interested in understanding more about the various social programs in place in Scandanavian countries and the pros and cons of implementing them in the US.

As an aside, are you saying that anyone who wants a small government is a racist?

Do you think all libertarians are racist?

Matt

On Fri, Mar 25, 2016 at 2:14 PM, Don Wharton <[address removed]> wrote:

Exactly!  The 'small government' meme is specifically a racist dog whistle telling people about an intent to insure that non-white races will not be receiving benefits from the government.  We need to repeat this info until it is fully understood.  The moral good is finding the optimal sized government which serves people in a balance way.  And obviously America is also a resource rich country.  
http://www.thenation.com/article/exclusive-lee-atwaters-infamous-1981-interview-southern-strategy/

 You start out in 1954 by saying, “Nigger, nigger, nigger.” By 1968 you can’t say “nigger”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “Nigger, nigger.”

Don

---

Subject: Re: [atheists-27] Nordic Social Democracies
From: [address removed]
To: [address removed]
Date: Thu, 24 Mar[masked]:47:17 -0400

Why is that?  Is it because voters refuse to allow it when they do not consider the overall population to be like themselves or is it because homogeneous populations are a requisite for it to work?  The answer should be obvious.  Homogeneous populations are irrelevant in all respects except for its negative impact on the willingness of voters to allow it.

On Mar 24, 2016, at 7:37 PM, Tom Fields <[address removed]> wrote:

That's interesting.  But what works in small, resource-rich countries with homogeneous populations may not work everywhere.  

Tom

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From: "Don Wharton" <[address removed]>
To: "atheists-27" <[address removed]>
Sent: Thursday, March 24,[masked]:31:40 AM
Subject: [atheists-27] Nordic Social Democracies

A very positive review of the Nordic Social Democracies.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/socialism-is-bad-nordic-stock-markets-are-among-the-best-2016-03-24?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts

Don

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