From: James Babb <[address removed]>
Subject: Re: [libertarian-16] Re: healthcare food stamps
To: [address removed]
Date: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 11:55 AM

This thread is about a debate strategy for an LP representative. Anyone who advocates welfare, by definition, rejects the NIF and lacks a fundemental understanding of economics.

On Jul 28, 2009, at 11:41 AM, Michael <[address removed]> wrote:

Who said I don't believe in it? And I don't officially represent the LP anymore, so there ya go. --- On Tue, 7/28/09, James Babb <[address removed]> wrote: From: James Babb <[address removed]> Subject: Re: [libertarian-16] Re: healthcare food stamps To: [address removed] Date: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 11:34 AM Those that do not belive in the moral and practical value of the NIF have no business representing libertarianism. On Jul 28, 2009, at 11:14 AM, Michael <[address removed]> wrote: It tricky to talk about a free market health care system because we don't have a free market, and reversing health care isn't going to make it one.  The bottom line is, the choice on the health care debate is nationalize it or leave it as is.  Reversing the government's role in healthcare just isn't going to happen. We have more practical fish to fry anyways.  The LP should be working to lower taxes on businesses that manufacturer.  Then when there are jobs, exports and a rising GNP, we can take credit for that and people will start to listen to us. Bottom line is, we've been at this for 37 years and have made no progress at all.  The non-coercion principle thing just isn't going to sell.  Most people, R & Ds alike, want a government that does something.  They just don't see it as the enemy that we do.  We need a more practical and real life approach. It's more or less futile to even try to fight this through debate and yik yak.  You people should be saving gold, guns, ammo, food and supplies.  Then you'll have more freedom when shit all falls apart. --- On Tue, 7/28/09, Adam Lang <[address removed]> wrote: From: Adam Lang <[address removed]> Subject: Re: [libertarian-16] Re: healthcare food stamps To: [address removed] Date: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 8:58 AM I think what he is trying to get at is, there are times when you discuss the full "ideology" package and there are times where you are best just trying to change the direction of thought on policy. I think it is an accurate assessment that an ideological line in the sand of "remove all government influence from health care" will be ignored and not be implemented in the forum he is attending as well as the national debate.  In that situation, you are much better served trying 1) stop the future policy from being more government involvement and 2) promoting a policy that lessens the amount of government involvement and still be palatable to the majority. Remember, government is getting bigger by bits and pieces; it isn't doing it in an overnight revolution.  More conservative and libertarian forms of policy can be achieved by bits and pieces as well. I think a stance of "we aren't saying to get government completely out of the picture; we are saying to implement a program that gives people a significant level of freedom of choice".  Is it core to libertarian beliefs? No.  Is it a hell of a lot closer than anything else on the table that is being seriously discussed or considered?  Yes.  It is proposing a solution that is wrapped in part of the libertarian message. It is a game of inches and yards, not hail mary passes.  Obama and Pelosi are going for hail maries and have a much larger base than the libertarians have and they are hitting walls.  On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 8:00 AM, George Donnelly <[address removed]> wrote: It is impossible to talk about government policy without bringing to bear some ideology (explicit or not) on the discussion. Your "focus on change on the ground" is an ideological statement. To pretend these statements are untrue is anti-intellectual and willful blindness. Make your choice but don't fool yourself about it. On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 9:46 PM, John Karr<[address removed]> wrote: > Jim, we?ve discussed similar issues before. I?m focused on change on the > ground, not ideology. Perfection isn?t on the table. I?m not going out to > challenge the paradigms of the leftish audience I?m facing, I?m out to prove > to them (at least those that aren?t solid socialists) that their favoured > Single Payer Solution will be unworkable and that the Obama plan is flawed > by its continued reliance on Employer provided healthcare. > > > > While I consider Employer provided health insurance a worse policy decision > than government provided health insurance, Obama wants to give us both evils > in his plan. Holding out for perfect ? elimination of income tax and > encouraging people to form Associations to provide the services formerly > provided by the welfare state (but on a voluntary basis) is just going to > get anyone who proposes it laughed at, and ignored in the wider debate. The > underlying issues to non-ideologically motivated voters are: provision for > the poor, coverage for those who don?t have good employers, and cost > control. Winning the debate requires meeting those issues while avoiding > head on collisions with people?s paradigms. > > > > If we want to get things done, rather than take what?s dished out, our > solutions need to accept the other paradigms/value systems that hold sway. > > > > > > > > -- > Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on > this mailing list ([address removed]) > This message was sent by John Karr ([address removed]) from The > Philadelphia Libertarian Party Meetup Group. > To learn more about John Karr, visit his/her member profile > To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here > > Meetup Support: [address removed] > 632 Broadway, New York, NY 10012 USA -- George Donnelly (215)[masked] [address removed] -- Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed]) http://libertarian.meetup.com/16/ This message was sent by George Donnelly ([address removed]) from The Philadelphia Libertarian Party Meetup Group. To learn more about George Donnelly, visit his/her member profile: http://libertarian.meetup.com/16/members/7184553/ To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here: http://www.meetup.com/account/comm/ Meetup Support: [address removed] 632 Broadway, New York, NY 10012 USA -- Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed]) This message was sent by Adam Lang ([address removed]) from The Philadelphia Libertarian Party Meetup Group. To learn more about Adam Lang, visit his/her member profile To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here Meetup Support: [address removed] 632 Broadway, New York, NY 10012 USA -- Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed]) This message was sent by Michael ([address removed]) from The Philadelphia Libertarian Party Meetup Group. To learn more about Michael, visit his/her member profile To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here Meetup Support: [address removed] 632 Broadway, New York, NY 10012 USA -- Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed]) This message was sent by James Babb ([address removed]) from The Philadelphia Libertarian Party Meetup Group. To learn more about James Babb, visit his/her member profile To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list settings, click here Meetup Support: [address removed] 632 Broadway, New York, NY 10012 USA

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