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The Phoenix Atheists Meetup Group Message Board General Discussion Forum › Most hated Atheist in US!

Most hated Atheist in US!

Jim L.
user 4873956
Phoenix, AZ
Post #: 284
Don: She definitely put atheism front and center, and gave it a name, unfortunately, she frequently gave it a *bad* name. And aside from Murray v. Corlett (which won at the Supreme Court thanks to the Schempps' case), American Atheists lost all of its subsequent lawsuits.

I'm sure she wrote some things that were eloquent and that I'd agree with, but she's not somebody to emulate in her personal behavior or in how American Atheists used to be run as an organization. I don't feel like I owe any debt to her--she had nothing to do with my conversion to atheism or the intellectual basis of my atheism, and she didn't make it any easier to be identified as an atheist in the United States. That's something which has only clearly begun to become easier in the last few years, largely due to prominent atheists like Richard Dawkins, and the Internet.
Charles B.
Phoenix, AZ
Post #: 118
Same here, I was an atheist before I heard of her. She was a very angry woman, I would say that she was the most hated atheist in the US. LOL.

I did not hate her, hate consumes the hater, I just didn't like her.

I see that she championed masturbation, she was ahead of her time I suppose, she did publicly say that there was no god and that was a first for me. Growing up I figured there was a god because I heard it daily, it was pumped into me, I just accepted that there was a god.

She was brave and she really was not lying like the churches who say that a really intelligent and psychic creator had sex with something that it made in order to have it's only offspring. That would be like me having sex with a goat but if I created the goat, that would be masturbation.

Unfortunately our world is not a good place to bring a newborn into, we have spent our resources and energy trying to get laid rather than using it to make this planet a decent place.

I would like to have a wet dream and I was having one but the reason I gave up sex, fought and overcame testosterone stopped me from going through with it. She was a remarkably beautiful female, really and I could not do anything. The reason is that I may bring a baby into this dimension. Not a good idea as stated. So what if the female says that she is using birth control, my thoughts are, there are serious side effects of many birth control methods except for abstinence which I have been doing since 2005. I really wanted to have a wet dream that night like I had as a kid, had a few and each seemed real as though they were happening. I blew that, the dream was so real I thought it was, so what could I do, it is against my principal, I screwed myself out of a wet dream, lol.

What in the hell do we have to lose? Our body, our animal body, is that all there is? LOL

We will lose our body, shed is a better word either way or any way, it will happen and it will be good, I joke not.

Life is energy, mass and memory combined, there are no limits to life and when we give up the idea of being on a planet that's orbiting a ball of fire then counting the orbits.... blah. But I'm glad I came to this here character generator of a world, I really am but at times it can be scary. It's okay, I am an atheist. Energy cannot be destroyed no matter how hard we try.
Don L.
Tucson, AZ
Post #: 156
It was not my intention to defend or justify Madalyn's character or demeanor. Her attitudes may have come from the times or forged over the causes she fought for over the years against all odds. She did some good for Atheists just as Thomas Jefferson did for Humanism (even though he was a slave owner). Doolittle' raid was a tactical failure but it spurred on the war effort and raised the county's moral. History is a tough judge. How we look at past events and personalities makes all the difference.

During this thread, there were discussions about how much better we're doing now bringing people together. The American Atheists have joined the Secular Coalition and that's a good thing. Why is it a good thing to dwell on the negatives of the past?

Conversation and skepticism are good things. Cynicism, not so much. Can anyone say with certainty what motivates us to take certain actions? Did Madalyn really hire Waters so that she could pay him less than minimum wages? That statement comes from cynical, unprovable assumption (unless you can show that she said it.)

As of my recent appointment to the position of Arizona State Director of American Atheists, I've tried to concentrate on positive Atheism. It my intention to take the word "Atheist" and own it, not avoid it.

No one is perfect. When we talk of the new Atheists, do we concentrate solely on their character flaws? If we do, we're making a mistake. Harris would like us to stop using the word "Atheist"; Hitchens has been known to drink, on occasion; Dennet's speeches are less than exciting. Who cares? Each of them are furthering the discussion and mostly in a positive way.
Jim L.
user 4873956
Phoenix, AZ
Post #: 286
I never said that her life was worth nothing--I wouldn't say that.

I'm also sure that some of the animosity towards her--perhaps a large part--was due simply to her atheism rather than her negative attributes, and in fact her negative attributes may have developed in part as a result of the disapproval she received from the general public. Atheists are still apparently the "most distrusted" group in the U.S.

I don't think my disapproval of her has anything to do with the fact that she's female. I have extremely high opinions of prominent female atheists, including Eugenie Scott of the NCSE, Anne Gaylor and Annie Laurie Gaylor of the FFRF, and Jennifer Michael Hecht the author of _Doubt: A History_, and Margaret Downey, to name five off the top of my head.

And I have criticized male atheist leaders where I disagree with them, including Dawkins, though I don't think he's ever said or done anything like the things I criticize O'Hair for. E.g.:


http://lippard.blogsp...­ (see comments)

I agree with you that there's no such thing as karma and that we should do more outreach to immigrants (or more broadly, to communities of people of other races, languages, and religions than white Anglo-Saxon Protestants).
Charles B.
Phoenix, AZ
Post #: 119
As to the principals of what is commonly referred to as Karma, I contend it works as evidenced by walking through a crowded group with a smile on your face, you will feel and see the results immediately as in Instant Karma, lol. Basically what we sow, we reap. If you did a scientific study, give a gift to someone and watch them glow which in turn makes you glow, it affects everyone as in cause and effect which is a scientific principal. Karma is a cool word and idea, sorry you missed it.

I will see if I saved the American Atheist magazines and get what information I can on their all too frequent and demanding pleas for my credit card number. It was bad.

As for a female being the head, the most intelligent oxygen breathers on the planet are the dolphins, larger brain, faster memory, luckier too, the leaders of each pod are the elder female, same with the elephant and many other species.

Being a female is normally 2.68 times more difficult than being male and the saying, pain is gain belongs to the female for what they routinely have to endure. With males the might is right idea comes into play, like, I am physically stronger than you so we will do it my way. The thought of George Bush made me want to puke, he and Joe Arpaio along with Dick Cheney should be placed in tent city for a summer and fed crappier food than the dogs. I was trying to start a online campaign to get a good female elected President, I was hoping for Dave Chappelle's wife Elaine but that didn't work out, maybe next time.

Fred Woodworth of Tucson and publisher of the Match was doing a great job on the AA monthly newsletter, his only drawback was that he didn't believe in computers, lol. Madalyn basically tried to ruin him, had to be out of jealousy, he was so good that I paid for several subscriptions and also subscribed to the Match for years. Then word came down that he had to cease publication of the AA newsletter, what a pity. I really missed it, had a lot of good stuff like a regular column, The Foxhole Atheist, his newsletter was better than the AA magazine. The whole idea of the magazine was to get your CC number, lol, it seemed.

Charles B.
Phoenix, AZ
Post #: 120
I looked for the magazines, found that I had saved The Match, Subgenius literature, skating magazines from 1980 but not the AA magazine. No content, we really didn't believe the same although we both held the idea that something would not create a hairy herd of humans and all of the other critters including the fortunate aquatics and want to be worshipped or honored by what it made. That would be self worship. Ridiculous.

I basically took myself off the atheist discussion forum from too much hatred being spewed at those who believe that energy cannot be destroyed of which there weren't many.

Life is composed of 3 basic elements, energy of which there is a lot of in existence, great amounts of energy, all over the universe and the same with mass, put the energy and mass together and you have form and motion. The third item I need help with, memory... from where did it come into existence and why, where, how, all that.

I have a decent theory as to how a big bang came into being, a better theory on how life will exist forever and a lot of ideas on being a human species (ignorant) of animal. We're in a giant character generator, lol. Watch out for Karma, She can be the truest friend or byte you in the butt depends on where your head is. Smiley...

A former member
Post #: 1
Hello Pinky,

Here is my response to your email.

To my knowledge she was honest with everyone. Some people find too much honesty as offensive. She also did not want people to be a "follower" to her like theists are to their religious leaders. She also refused to allow other people to limit the words that she used. So there were people, Atheists and theists, that were offended by her language.

With each monthly magazine came a request for funds. It is especially expensive to run an organization like ours. She never demanded money, but was always grateful when people gave it to the organization.

I assisted the then Az state director of American Atheist with the setting up of the convention and the running of it. The only people that were escorted off the premises were a group of xtians that were carring signs and screaming that we were all going to hell and it was their job to prevent us from taking others with them. I never saw or heard of anyone else being escorted off the premises.

She had a law degree, a juris doctorate. She was very knowledgeble of both the bible and history.

Jim L.
user 4873956
Phoenix, AZ
Post #: 297

Too much honesty? That's an erroneous diagnosis. Have you read Bozarth's _The Mouth That Roared_? Have you read Fred Woodworth's _The Atheist Cult_? Have you read Lawrence Wright's _Saints and Sinners_ or his profile of O'Hair in the _Texas Monthly_? Have you spoken with G. Richard Bozarth (who worked at AA HQ), or Anne Gaylor, or Jeff Frankel, or Brian Lynch (who worked at AA HQ), or Judy Sawyer of the Phoenix Skeptics, or the former student members of University Student Atheists at UT Austin, or anyone else abused or lied to by O'Hair? If not, then you have no basis for your judgment.

Here's a letter from Madalyn Murray O'Hair to John Lauritsen (for what it's worth, he's now an HIV-denier kook), kicking him out of the American Atheists:


John Lauritsen,

The California Chapter of Society of Separationists, Inc., has sent me a zerox [sic] copy of your letter dated May Day, 1976.

I would expect this kind of literature to issue from a misogomist [sic]. I am a _female_ head of an American Atheist group. You are a cock-sucker. You like men and boys. You don't like women. We don't have cocks for you to suck.

Also, we are not Marxists as you are.

Form your own group of cock-sucking Atheist Marxists and be happy, kiddo; but don't count on me as an ally.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair


Image of this letter: http://www.discord.or...­

Charles B.
Phoenix, AZ
Post #: 124
I found and read this link, it was a real mind blower, it is the story of Madalyn from fairly early on to the disappearance and later discovery of her and a few others on a Texas Ranch.

A former member
Post #: 2

Thank you for responding. You said pretty much what I would have, had I be able to respond sooner.


“Have you read Bozarth's _The Mouth That Roared_? Have you read Fred Woodworth's _The Atheist Cult_? Have you read Lawrence Wright's _Saints and Sinners_ or his profile of O'Hair in the _Texas Monthly_?”

No I have not. I knew Madalyn, Jon, and Robin. I also know, and have known, many people who were close to the family.

“Have you spoken with G. Richard Bozarth (who worked at AA HQ), or Anne Gaylor, or Jeff Frankel, or Brian Lynch (who worked at AA HQ), or Judy Sawyer of the Phoenix Skeptics, or the former student members of University Student Atheists at UT Austin, or anyone else abused or lied to by O'Hair?”

I corresponded with Ms. Gaylor, but none of the others. However, you seem to prefer to agree only with those who either had problems with the family or wanted to take the organization in a different direction than it was headed.

“If not, then you have no basis for your judgment.”

Most of my posting was just facts that I knew. So, while I “judged” Madalyn to be a good leader for the group at the time that she was the leader. That “judgment” was based solely on the facts that I knew. So, how can you say “no basis for your judgment”? Facts are always a good basis for any judgment.

Now, here is my question to you. Did you actually know Madalyn, personally? If not, then what are you basing your “judgment”?
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Phoenix, AZ

Founded Feb 23, 2003

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