Drinking Skeptically @ Jalapenos - A Tribute to One of Ours - Bobby Burr

Our Drinking Skeptically moderator, Rob Haskell, author of GOD OF THE MIND, had a schedule conflict so as his back-up, I (Monty Vonn) will be filling in for this 3rd Thursday, Feb. 19th as moderator.

We will start out by raising our glasses to our long time member, Bobby Burr, the CAP & TRADE GUY (who has an unusual collection of bottle caps from antiquity to now). His friends from the Soda Pop Collector Group posted a kind eulogy on FB Rainier Chapter BCCA and mentioned that Bobby was one of the few people who managed The Crown Cap Collectors Society International website. Please use link below to see it and even add a comment if so inclined:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/258681658987717/posts/1443049830550888/

We will reflect on his time with us as we go around our brief circle of introduction. We wouldn't have Jalapenos Banquet room had Bobby not suggested and urged us to try it out over next door Barkley Bob's and even offered to underwrite the minimum $300 food and drink tab if we didn't meet them. Thankfully he never had to cover the difference even on the rare moment we only had 9 attendees!

The move serendipitously worked out as next door Bob's unexpectantly closed indefinitely for reconstruction from June of last year to who knows when!

Thank you Bobby!

But beside his unserious bottle cap collection hobby, Bobby had a serious side and was deeply involved in local Civic and Environmental groups and issues and if there was a protest on the streets, you would find him there! So in that spirit, in line with Bobby, we have the following topics, time permitting, to discuss!
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Topic 1) Overstaffed ICE behavior, detaining non-criminal people who look like immigrants with no due process, assumed guilty until proven innocent from an UNDERSTAFFED judicial system that takes SEVERAL MONTHS before releasing many innocent victims and families!

A local story nationally broadcasted by PBS News yesterday of a Honduras mother detained with her 4 U.S. citizen children in a Tacoma WA facility for over 100 days (the children for 14 days, until released to a family to care for near Blaine's Peach Arch Park) until she was released, but did loose her business and clients and home, to then start over. The Video is only 7 minutes long:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-FEC96_2yU

ICE behavior is deeply disturbing, sweeping up non criminal civilians who look like immigrants, and presumed guilty, detained for months without due process and no hurry to find they are legal after all. But in mean time, parties loose their jobs, business, their clients and their homes with no efforts to make them whole even when not guilty! So what are your thoughts on this?
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Topic 2) The United States Was Not Founded As A Christian Nation!
Please scroll way down to see full article - do consider copying it to show your "We are founded as a Christian Nation" Christian White Nationalist friends! I will send an attached PDF in a group email a few days before the meeting for all to download and print later.

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Topic 3) E.P.A. to Stop Considering Lives Saved When Setting Rules on Air Pollution (thank you Clint Miller for this article)
https://www.nytimes.com/2026/01/12/climate/trump-epa-air-pollution.html
The EPA under the Trump administration has announced it will no longer consider the economic value of lives saved or health benefits (such as reduced illnesses) when setting pollution limits for fine particulate matter. This policy change, which focuses solely on the cost of compliance for industries, aims to ease regulations on polluters.

And a continuation on the reading of:
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Topic 4) Book: TYRANNY - Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century
This book is short and relevant to face the current rapid fire of events, MAGA Rupture in world order and our militia aimed inward at "the Enemies within", ICE, National Guard & Marines in our Cities, along with Proud Boys and other private militia "stand back and stand by" waiting for the Trump's dog whistle. Click on links below for more book info:

https://timothysnyder.org/on-tyranny

Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Tyranny-Twenty-Lessons-Twentieth-Century/dp/0804190119

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Yes! That's a LOT of material, but this will be a very busy, chaotic and pivotal year, with mid term elections and continued fallout of this disastrous maligned authoritative administration of RETRIBUTION against the American People for not being 100% behind the King!
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About our schedule during the meeting: We are trying to dedicate the first 15 minutes to socializing and ordering our food and drinks. So please help us make the ordering process as efficient as possible. This will minimize interruptions of the discussion. We won't be doing Socratic Dialog this time, but it's still on the table for a future meetup.

AND NOW FOR THE FULL ARTICLE OF:

The United States Was Not Founded As A Christian Nation

As the nation’s 250th Birthday approaches next July Fourth, (the Semiquincentennial, officially) we can expect to hear more than usual about whether the United States was founded as a Christian nation. It was not. While influenced by a predominantly Christian culture, the political foundations of the United States rest on Age of Enlightenment rationalism and a deliberate rejection of any established religion. The country was simply founded as a place where Christians were free to worship, as were people of other faiths or no faith, but not as a Christian nation.

● Many of the most influential Founding Fathers embraced deism fully or partially, rather than Christianity.
● The Declaration of Independence does not mention the God of the Bible or Christianity. It was drafted by Thomas Jefferson, a deist, to announce that the Thirteen Colonies were separating from England, not to establish a national government.
● The Articles of Confederation (1781), the Constitution (1787), and the Treaty of Tripoli (1797) explicitly or implicitly distance the federal government from Christianity or any religious identity.
● Nowhere in those documents or even in the 85 essays comprising The Federalist Papers did any of the Founders say “This will be a Christian nation” or anything similar.
Examining the intellectual, social, and legal contexts of the nation’s founding era shows that the United States was not established as a Christian nation, but rather as a secular republic committed to protecting freedom of religion.
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The Religious and Intellectual Climate of the Founding Era
By the late eighteenth century the Colonies were populated by Baptists, Anglicans, Congregationalists, Quakers, Presbyterians, Methodists, Moravians, and Deists; collectively they were Protestants who all had different ideas about Christianity. Catholics had yet to immigrate in any significant numbers. Equally important was the influence of the Age of Enlightenment. Across the colonies, but especially among the educated political leaders, the writings of John Locke, Voltaire, Montesquieu, and other Enlightenment figures shaped debates about government, authority, and human rights. Enlightenment thinkers challenged the divine right of kings, emphasized natural law, and advocated religious toleration. The Founders absorbed these ideas through their education, personal libraries, and political discussions.
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Deism Among the Founding Fathers
Deism, an Enlightenment religious philosophy asserting that a supreme being created the universe but does not intervene with humankind, flourished among many of America’s intellectual leaders. Deists typically affirmed a Creator and admired the moral teachings of Jesus, yet rejected miracles, revelation, and the theological doctrines central to Christianity.

Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson was a deist. Although personally respectful of Christianity’s ethical teachings, Jefferson denied the divinity of Jesus, rejected the Trinity, and dismissed biblical miracles as myth or metaphor. His private letters often reveal sharp criticism of orthodox Christianity, and his famous Jefferson Bible, a compilation of Jesus’s teachings with all miracles removed, embodies his desire to separate moral philosophy from religious superstition. Jefferson believed government should neither support nor interfere with any religion because religion was a matter of individual choice and conscience.

Benjamin Franklin
Benjamin Franklin also embraced a broadly deistic worldview. Early in life he declared himself a “thorough Deist,” and although he moderated this stance over time, he remained skeptical of orthodox Christian doctrine. His writings emphasize rational morality, civic virtue, and tolerance rather than doctrinal faith.

James Madison
James Madison, sometimes portrayed as more conventionally religious, was heavily influenced by Enlightenment thought. His political writings reveal a deep suspicion of religious establishment. His “Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments” (1785) articulated perhaps the strongest early American argument against state-supported religion, contending that faith must remain voluntary and that government involvement corrupts both church and state.

George Washington
George Washington’s faith was Christian, but his public language was consistently nonsectarian. He rarely referenced Jesus, seldom took communion, and avoided framing national identity in Christian terms. In his 1790 letter to the Hebrew Congregation of Newport, Washington emphasized that the government “gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance,” affirming full civic equality for a non-Christian community.

Taken together, the views of these leading statesmen demonstrate that while Christianity shaped American culture, the political philosophy of the founding generation was profoundly influenced by deism and Enlightenment rationalism. The Founders tended to see religion as a matter of private morality, not as a foundation for national governance.
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The Declaration of Independence
Supporters of the “Christian nation” thesis often cite the Declaration of Independence as proof of the nation’s Christian origins, pointing to its references to a “Creator” and “Nature’s God.” However, these terms reflect Enlightenment natural theology, not Christian orthodoxy.
The phrase “Nature’s God” derives from John Locke’s conception of natural rights, which he grounded in natural law rather than biblical revelation. For Locke, individuals possess rights inherently as human beings, not because the Bible grants them.

Thomas Jefferson, who drafted the Declaration, adopted this language precisely because it was universal and philosophical. The Declaration contains no references to Jesus Christ, the Bible, or Christian salvation. Its references to a higher power are carefully abstracted to avoid denominational meaning.

Moreover, the Declaration is not a governing document. It announces the colonies’ separation from Britain and outlines a theory of legitimate government, but it does not create institutions, laws, or a constitutional order. Its rhetorical style reflects eighteenth-century political philosophy, not Christian doctrine.

The Constitution - not the Declaration - defines the framework of the federal government, and its near silence on religion profoundly shaped the early republic and should continue today.
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The Constitution and the Secular Framework of American Government
The Constitution of 1787 is strikingly secular. Unlike the founding documents of many European states, it contains no references to God, the Bible, Jesus, or Christianity. Its authors understood that religious pluralism was essential to national unity, and that government involvement in religion historically bred civil conflict. It only mentions religion twice:

1. The No Religious Test Clause (Article VI): This clause states that “no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.” In an era when many nations limited officeholding to members of established churches, this provision was revolutionary. It ensured that the federal government belonged to all citizens, regardless of faith—or lack thereof.

2. The First Amendment (1791): The Establishment Clause (“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”) prohibits the federal government from establishing, endorsing or supporting any religion. The Free Exercise Clause protects the right of individuals to practice their faith or lack of one without government interference.
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The Articles of Confederation
Even before being replaced by the Constitution, the Articles of Confederation (ratified 1781) established a national government without invoking Christianity. The Articles mention neither God nor Jesus Christ, nor do they establish any religious qualifications for public office. This silence is significant: the Articles were drafted by many of the same leaders who would later frame the Constitution, revealing a consistent preference for secular national governance.
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The Treaty of Tripoli: An Explicit Rejection of a Christian National Identity
Perhaps the most direct evidence that the early United States was not founded as a Christian nation appears in a formal diplomatic document: the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli, negotiated under the Washington administration, signed by President John Adams, and unanimously ratified by the Senate.

Article 11 of the treaty states: “The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”
The purpose of this clause was diplomatic - to reassure Muslim states in North Africa that the United States had no religious hostility toward them - but its constitutional significance is undeniable. This was not an offhand remark; it was an official statement of the federal government.
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Conclusion: A Secular Republic in a Religious Society
The United States was established in a predominantly Protestant Christian society, yet the nation’s political foundations were deliberately secular. Several leading founders embraced deism or heterodox religious views; the Declaration of Independence employed Enlightenment rather than Christian language; the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution avoided religious preference; and the Treaty of Tripoli explicitly stated that the government is not founded on Christianity.

This does not diminish the cultural influence of Christianity on American life, nor does it deny the sincerity of the many founders who were devout Christians. Rather, it underscores the unique nature of the American founding: a nation where religious belief was respected but never enforced, where political legitimacy arose from the people rather than from divine authority, and where the government protected freedom of conscience for all.
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THANK YOU ALL FOR SUGGESTED TOPICS!
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If you have a topic for us to consider for this meeting, please email me at - [SecularWorld@aol.com](mailto:SecularWorld@aol.com) -. If you have an article to share or a short video to watch, send me the link to both. Feel free to bring and share the latest book you may have read to the meeting!
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Monty Vonn - Event Coordinator for 3 local counties
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We encourage attendees to share their life story that lead their journey to the 'Land of Freethought', Free Inquiry and Skepticism towards cultural norms, traditions and stories.
Freethought encourage creative solutions, but then this group uses reason, evidence and the scientific method as the only reliable means to prune down answers to our probing questions and common sense solutions to humanity's current problems.