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Re: [sfror] Looking for 2 Lead ROR Developers in SF!

From: Azat M.
Sent on: Saturday, June 16, 2012 3:28 PM
Excellent point. Salespeople = recruiters. I'm sure there are very good recruiters out there and I don't want to insult anybody. But there are much more bad recruiters than good ones. Like Realtors? :) They waste time fishing for information which is in the resume,  don't know tech, drop the ball, don't give feedback, sell under or over qualified positions to candidates, etc. and if it's consulting then they take $$$ from employee's paycheck. 

--
Azat,
http://azat.co


On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Roman Kofman <[address removed]> wrote:
I take a fairly hard stance on this, and refuse to contact any recruiter that isn't upfront with information. I see it as a matter of the power dynamic during that "quick call". By making a potential recruit call in an informational void, you get to drive the conversation. Moreover, by calling, we communicate intent. It's easier to take that implicit intent and use social pressures to turn it into real intent -- even where it wasn't really that strong in the first place!

It's very much like not knowing the price of a piece of furniture / car / house, and being forced to call a salesperson to find it out. It's immediately a high-pressure situation, and the salesperson will make sure to find out all the reasons you're unhappy in your current car before revealing that this new car will solve all your problems, and its price is affordable in just 36 easy payments...

Same thing here: if a recruiter keeps the company's name from me, I feel like I'm being manipulated from the very start of the relationship. At that point, the value-add from the recruiter is simply not worth it unless I am desperate for a job (at which point, the name of the company doesn't really matter).

--
Roman.




On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Raj Irukulla <[address removed]> wrote:
You're overlooking a key part of the value proposition:  recruiters help sell you to prospective employers.  For folks who don't have a lot of real-world experience, or might not be presenting themselves in the best light, this could be very helpful.

It's somewhat puzzling to see people's reactions to not knowing the company name up front.  You can usually find this out with a quick call.  


On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 3:41 AM, Mehul Kar <[address removed]> wrote:
Thanks for all the responses everyone. 

I have a hard time believing that a recruiter could paint a better picture of a company and it's culture than I could get by looking up the founders on LinkedIn/Twitter (for small companies) and walking by or into the facilities for bigger ones. 
I also have a hard time believing that I could accurately explain "what I was looking for" to a recruiter. This second one may only be true for me though as I am new to the industry. I wasn't looking for tangible things a few weeks ago, or even if I was, I was totally wrong about what I wanted. But walking into some places felt good and some places felt not so good. A recruiter couldn't possibly translate that. 

This is all for the sale of discussion of course. I met with a recruiting company last month for an hour or so an they were all very nice. Did not get a job through them. If they offered exclusive access to companies, that would make their value proposition much higher for me. 

*ramble over. 


Thanks,

Mehul Kar

---
Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 16, 2012, at 2:16 AM, Michael Chong <[address removed]> wrote:

Samer, well put!

:)  And Vlad, I don't mean to counter your point each turn, but not many engineers/people_in_general understand the truth behind the hiring economics.  

Large or small, the cost of recruiting is never taken into account when negotiating a candidate offer.  Once the employer makes an offer, then that means they seriously are committed and want the candidate...BUT at an acceptable level of salary.  When running a company and managing employees, there are many factors to consider, especially organizationally acceptable level of salary for the appropriate level of experience/skills.  In fact, the salary discrepancy between software engineers in an organization is extremely sensitive more so at a small company than large.

At a large company, they have a greater range bracket within a job class and overlaps the next level.  They can afford it.
i.e.  Job Class 2 - S/W Engineer $65K ~ $100K
Job Class 3 - Senior S/W Engineer $90K ~ $120K 
Job Class 4 - Principal S/W Engineer $110K ~ $140K.  

This is intentional at large companies for various reasons, especially at Oracle, VMWare, etc.  Caliber of school, type of degree, value of most recent experience, etc.  It gives them the flexibility to go after hot candidates but not give them a more Senior title. Or promote someone without giving them much of a raise, if any, to incentivize the much needed "resource/workhorse" to stay.  How many times have that happen to us?

For reals...    The fee for external recruiters has already been calculated and accepted when the agency contract was signed.  The budget has already been approved for it when they signed.  Employers are committed to the agreement and will ALWAYS consider the agency recruiters' candidates with as much seriousness as or more than an employee referral.  Otherwise, they would not have signed the agreement at all.  Small or Large, companies don't care about whether the recruiter makes $2K more or less.  It's all about getting the right candidate.

I hope you'll understand that NO employers will EVER, I mean they will NEVER EVER...did I say NEVER?...think to give the candidate an increase in salary with the amount saved from no agency placement fee.  The new hire's salary is COMPLETELY separate from the agency cost or any other cost of hiring.  They have a salary range in mind and they will stick to it for the sake of the organization, small or large.

I'm very glad and appreciative of you sharing your presumptions so that we can clear up any misunderstandings about agency recruiters (the good ones).  The next series should perhaps be around the challenges of in-house recruiters.  If there are in-house recruiters, why would they enlist agency recruiters?  Makes you wonder, right?

More than my 2 cents...more like 2 bucks ;)

Michael 


On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 1:55 AM, Samer Masry <[address removed]> wrote:
It's a relationship between the recruiter and the developer.  As a dev you want to know that the recruiter understands what your interests are.  As an employer you want devs who are interested in what your developing.  Recruiters are the only ones who take the time to find out more about what your looking for besides the job description or the site.  At One Kings Lane our site is tailored for a certain customer group so devs have a hard time discovering how much tech we have by our site alone.

-s

On Jun 15, 2012, at 11:32 PM, Vladimir Gurovich <[address removed]> wrote:

Ditto on Crunchbase as well as HackerNews.

On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 11:16 PM, Azat Mardanov <[address removed]> wrote:
Vladimir, good catch! This make so much sense for the added value of recruiters: "job description was a copy paste from" :)

Personally, I prefer to know the company name upfront. It's website, CrunchBase profile and founders tell a lot of information before even considering the position.
 
--
Azat,
http://azat.co


On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 9:05 PM, Vladimir Gurovich <[address removed]> wrote:
It seems a catch 22 type of situation: On one hand, recruiter may help you with negotiation. On another, a recruiter is getting a cut of what you might be getting, so the advantage of recruiter negotiating for you may cancel itself out.
I see your point about extra info that a recruiter may be able to provide, in this case the job description was a copy paste from company's site which allowed me to google the company in an instant though :)

On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 4:12 PM, cody voellinger <[address removed]> wrote:

That’s true Erik, but from a Recruiter’s perspective, that’s not my main concern with displaying the company name.  A recruiter can help a candidate who is applying in many ways- company insight, interview prep, salary negotiations, and getting their resume heard above the rest.  So I feel most candidates would prefer to work with a recruiter, assuming the recruiter is a good one.

 

The reason I am often reluctant to give out a client name initially, is because the natural response is to jump to the company’s website and make a quick decision whether it is interesting or not.

 

Often times, these decisions are not completely informed.  There is a lot of info I want to provide about the team size, culture, current projects and future direction of the company that should weigh into making that an interesting place to work.  But that info would get ignored as soon as a hyperlink is provided…

 

My $.02, have a good weekend all!

 

From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of Erik Petersen
Sent: Friday, June 15,[masked]:01 PM
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [sfror] Looking for 2 Lead ROR Developers in SF!

 

Recruiters don't want you to apply directly because then they don't get a commission.

On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 3:35 PM, Mehul Kar <[address removed]> wrote:

I'm relatively new to this list and to programming, but isn't it important for developers (or anyone) to know from job postings what company/product they're applying for? I guess I don't understand how recruiters work. 

 

 

------

Mehul Kar



On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Nicole Blincoe <[address removed]> wrote:

Looking for Jr. and Lead ROR Developers!

Contract to hire or Direct Hire:)

 

What you’ll do…

• Operate as a member of the agile development team.

• Pair program with other top notch rails engineers, developing across the full stack of functionality from database to front end.

• Build full stack automation tests to ensure that the shipped product is as solid and reliable.

• Work on chef recipes to deploy production system changes, in a paired environment.

• Resolve production defects and respond to direct customer needs.

 

Skills we’d like to see…

• Real world experience with Ruby on Rails in a production environment.

• Experience working and deploy on Linux systems.

• Familiarity with cloud based deployments.

• Browser automation experience, with Selenium or other related technologies.

• Database experience, preferably with PostgreSQL or a similar system.

• Chef experience, or other system automation technology a plus.

 

What’s in it for you…

• To become part of a team that is new, energized and going places…fast.

• You’ll be working in the Financial District with close proximity to transportation, places to dine, glasses of wine and stands for shoe shines.

• And, the best part – Happy Hou





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